Category Training

So I’ve developed a classic case of ITBS or IT Band Syndrome aka the Illiotibial Band.

involves “buns of steel” and “hips don’t lie”

All the classic symptons are there.  It didn’t hurt for short distances and then started hurting and then over longer distances eased up.   Sprinting, full blown balls to the wall maximal effort, makes it not hurt for a time.

So there’s a lot of bad information or rather invalid information out there about ITBS.  And some good information.  It can take time to dig through both kinds and come to a conclusion.

I’d been doing the bad information for awhile without seeing any results, no relief and the issue keeps getting worse.   That told me that maybe the information I was being given may not be actually accurate.

The bad information involves “Friction” “rubbing” “rolling”, “Icing”, “Stretching”.

The good information involves “buns of steel” and “hips don’t lie”.

The bad information is based on guesswork.  The good information based on science.

I prefer to think science is my bitch as opposed to guesswork.  Although educated guessing is in part how I do my job so I can’t downplay it too much.

So as it turns out, per the science, ITBS, has significant links to a weak ass and outer hips and acerbated by strong inner thighs (no I don’t own a Thigh Master (R)) and a cross over gait.   I have all of those things going against me.

I’m not going to post links here, just google IT Band Syndrome Repair and you’ll come back with links like this (okay so I’m posting one link) –

Excercises to treat ITBS

But there are several others and if you go through all of them you’ll walk away with a decent understanding of what the issue is, what causes it and the best options to fix it.

So for me, after my Half this weekend I’m going to take a week or two off and just focus on strength training in general and very much specific to ITBS.    Then I’ll do some shorter runs for a week or two, probably at 5k race pace, and see how things are progressing.

I’ll also be trying to retrain my gait to be a little wider which will help.   All of these things should see me running without as much pain or even pain free which is my biggest problem right now.  10 miles isn’t a big deal, 10 miles when you’re in pain for 9 miles of it not so easy to deal with.

As I mentioned prior I’m using the Stryd Marathon training plan.  It’s an interesting plan in a few ways.  The workouts have more variation in the workouts themselves than other plans I’ve used or seen.   Also the initial month is very low speed long distance.  Distances aren’t that long per se but this is obviously not a couch to marathon plan since week 1 has a 8 mile run at the end and the short distance is 4 miles.

Economy of form leads to being able to go the distance”

When I first started I couldn’t do a 4 minute run…

The slow runs also have some kind of ‘strides’ as Stryd calls them or sprints or intervals as I grew up calling them.  The first few runs that have sprints are pretty simple 3 to 6 mile zone 1 running (super slow) and then  100 meters balls to the wall full on sprint with 1 minute jog or walk.  Repeat the sprint cycle 4 to 10 times depending on the workout.

After the first 3 or 4 weeks of training the tail end road sprints change to hill sprints which start at 8 second balls out sprinting uphill followed by 1 minute jog or walk, repeat 4 to 10 times.

What I find the most interesting/intriguing about the Stryd plan is the alleged science behind their rhyme and reason of their training activities.   Each one is, allegedly, designed to target a specific function of the running physiology.  LSD’s or Long Slow Distances which are slow slow are designed to strengthen the heart, promote healing (which I could use right now) and increase oxygen delivery ability at the cellular level.   That all sounds pretty science-ey doesn’t it?

The sprints, especially hill sprints are designed to increase neuromuscular capabilities, strength and leg sprint stiffness.  These lead to more economy of form.   Economy of form leads to being able to go the distance.

There are a total of 8 different areas the various styles of workouts targets.  Remember Rocky 3?  Dolph had all the Russian science behind him and all Rocky had was star power so he won?   In reality science is a pretty big boost toward being able to accomplish what you want in the time yuou want it.   Obviously runners used to just ‘get out there and run’.   But it does make one think how much better those awesome runners of yore could have been if they’d of trained with the knowledge we have now of anatomy, physiology, kinesthesiology and in general just more understanding of the human body and it’s bio-mechnics.

I for one feel my slow, structured approach to running even #notrunning as I do has got me there safely and with minimal risk.   Indeed it was only when I started added extra ‘off book’ runs especially ones on technical trails and hills that I started having problems with my knee.  Just the one.  The left one.

At some point Time will come crashing down with a ‘this is is my friend, this is as far as you can get now, after 5 decades of abuse, this is the maximum your body can output’.  So we’ll see where that line is.

During my sprints on Tuesday, granted just 100 meters at a time, I hit a pace of 6:04 per mile.   All in all I don’t really think that’s anything to complain about given my age, lack of training and the fact that I outweigh the average elite runner by over 100 lbs.   Those are some big handicaps to overcome.  Time will tell how far over that hump I can get.

The title of this post is a play on a play of words.  Back in my younger days when I had more free time and less demands on what time I did I was both a geek and a nerd.  i.e. I played roleplaying games.  The kind you do with several people.  That’s probably not clarified enough, the kind you do with several people, with your clothes on.  Okay maybe that’s still debatable.  The kind you do with several people, using rule books and dice, with your clothes on and there are no orgasms involved.

But as one of the bigger clydesdales in the herd”

Anyway there are these things called Driders which are a combination of a kind of elf and a spider in a centaur like blending.   In one particular session our heroes were at a placed called Storm Shipping and Receiving when they were attacked by Driders.  This of course by necessity generated the phrase “Drider’s on the Storm”.

Which is a long way to go about explaining a title that makes sense to now one.

Anyway….  I bought a Stryd foot pod as the pacing and distance from my watch wasn’t as precise as I now want it to be.  I was also intrigued by the ‘train using power’ metrics that are being floated around.   The Stryd foot pod calculates how much energy/effort you’re expending on each step you take to move your body mass forward.  It analyzes all kinds of data from each step and gives you a picture of running motion.   It takes into account slopes, go up hill and burn more power, downhill burn less.

The idea is to run so that you burn a specific amount of energy for distance and to go into specific burn zones, i.e. energy output bands, to achieve your training goals.  Certain bands and types/timing of training are good for certain things, lactate use, vo2 max increase, physiological changing of the body for running etc.

Now that I’ve finished my half marathon training using the Garmin Heart Rate Zone based plan I’m going to try the Stryd marathon training plan.   It’s interesting, the first month is a lot of long slow distance or LSD’s with some sprints, Stryd calles them strides, at the end of the shorter ones.   The speeds are slower than I’ve been training with so far for long distances so it’ll be interesting to see the results.

I did a 9 mile run on Sunday at the recommended speed which was about 90 seconds per mile slower than I’d been running long distances and I was a little surprised at how difficult it did feel by the end of the run.  There are extenuating circumstances, in the previous month I’d run my first half marathon, normal training, a 5k race on Friday, 2 5K obstacle courses on Saturday and then the 9 mile on Sunday.  So there may have been a wee bit of reason as to why 9 miles slow felt kind of tough by the end.

It runs through to mid September over 4 months of training.   It’s 3 days a week, starting with 16 miles a week for the first week and ramping up to around 40-50 miles a week at the peak of the training.

But as one of the bigger clydesdales in the herd for distance running long and specifically slow may be what I need at the moment to help clear up a nagging knee issue.

So my new fancy Stryd after 3 runs is telling me I have a few areas to improve on.  The problem is how does someone who’s #notarunner build a training plan around these recommendations?  That’s one thing I’m running with the Stryd and any advanced data/metrics is “Okay I have all this data.  Now what?”   My leg stiffness is X.  Yay?  Boo?  My ground contact time is XXXms.  Okay?

where I can get the best bang for my buck.”

Stryd doesn’t as far as I can find offer any information on what these numbers mean, if they’re good or bad or indifferent, and if they’re bad how to improve them.

Now some data is obvious like GCT or ground contact time.  The less time you’re in contact with the ground the faster you’re going.  Duh.

Interestingly I found some data on some of these numbers in an article that just mentions them in passing.   But they outlined that some vertical oscillation is good, too much is bad.  Same with GCT where most runners fall between here and there.   And leg stiffness is actually a good thing within a certain range as it increases running economy.

I have a Garmin based marathon training plan that kicks in after my half marathon this weekend.  But now I need to work on using that as a base plan and then incorporate targeted workouts the Stryd is telling me where I can get the best bang for my buck into the Garmin plan.

My thought is keep the Sunday long run obviously.   Then add Hills, Fartleks, Intervals etc as the other training each week and just keep increasing the times/repetitions.   The problem is that’s tedious grunt work and I hate tedious grunt work.  I like that I can select a plan on Garmin and then set a start date and hit ‘send to watch’ and done.   I sync the Garmin calendar to my Google calendar, turn on notifications and get a 24 hour heads up about what I’m doing the next day and I can print the calendar to show my week.   No muss, no micro managing each workout.

Another thing I’m not real sure of is what is a “High Volume Easy Run” versus a “Long Run”.   Do you just run a lot of easy runs but at what distance?  Should I stick a Z1 run of 3 miles in on all my current off days?

Anyway this is all in my road to doing either a marathon or a 50K this fall.  The bad part is I’m training for a marathon or 50K distance during Oklahoma summers in the middle of climate change madness causing hotter than normal temperatures.  But what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger is what I hear.

Did my last long long run before the half coming up in 2 weeks yesterday.  Was doing pretty good up till about 7 miles and then my knee decided to get pissy as hell.

And being curious is how you get into things you might have otherwise not gotten into.  Or that’s what I hear about college anyway.”

I was able to find, eventually, a gait that reduced the pain from WTF to Ouch levels by landing my left foot on the outside edge.   This reduced the stress that was happening to my knee or some reason I have no idea on but for whatever reason it let me maintain my pace for the most part.

We tried a 1 mile run, 45 second recovery lather rinse repeat this run and that worked okay I think.  It didn’t cause problems anyway.   And really not causing problems is something to be desired.

I’m going to put a pair of orthotics into my chosen race shoes, Nimbus 18’s right now, to add some support and help drive my foot to the outside.  When it doubt just force it and hit it with some lube if it sticks right?  It works in a lot of situations at least.

We didn’t quite get the pace I was hoping for but we might hit it for race day.  Regardless the primary goal is just to finish the half marathon and not be last over the line.

I forgot to bring a chest strap which points out the problems I have with the OHR monitor on  watch.  Flexing of my wrist, shifting of the watch over time, this all means it reads funky.   I had to throw out all my HR data for this run as it was all suspect.  And not just mildly so.

Another problem I have is how instant pace using GPS is off.  When you’re trying to run a pretty specific pace for a race and GPS based pacing is fluctuating 10-15% due to time outs and straight line averaging when going curves and corners it can be problematical.

I’m curious about the Stryd and it’s power zone training, the metrics it provides and how allegedly it can have accurate pacing without being calibrated.  Since my stride is not consistent enough at this time it throws off my foot pod which is accurate at a given single stride length.

And being curious is how you get into things you might have otherwise not gotten into.  Or that’s what I hear about college anyway.

With the Altra Torin 2.5’s being on sale for near half price everywhere I bought a pair.  I ran them yesterday for my intervals (10min warmup, 5min Z4, 1m z2, repeat 4) with my running partner.

makes me bounce like Tigger on a sugar rush”

I wanted the Altra Paradigm 2.0’s but they’re hard to find in my size.  They’re a maximal cushioned shoe, i.e. a massive stack height.  For long distances though a maximal stack height is something I kind of want.

It was wet out, a bit of a spring downpour had just gone overhead so the first thing I noted about the Torin’s is they actually have some traction on asphalt unlike my Hoka Clifton 3’s which are very slippery on wet concrete.

The Torin’s are definitely a ‘moderate’ cushion shoe.  I’m not sure I’d want to run a marathon in them without dropping another 70 lbs.

The 0 drop shoes reinforce moving off of heel striking but they can only go so far in changing your stride.  Trying to switch from a hard core heel striker after 50 years of running that way is tough.   Trying to toe strike makes me bounce like Tigger on a sugar rush. Getting a mid foot strike may be the best compromise I can come up with.

I think they run a little small myself in spite of their ‘true to size’ rating.  My foot measures as a 12.6 on the U.S. foot scale and at a 13 these may require a little breaking in or thinner socks than the Balega Blister Resists I was wearing to fit ‘right’.   As usual when things are a little crowded my pointer and middle toes on my right foot start to complain at about the 3 mile mark.

Luckily I have three boys who wear the same size shoes so any shoes I don’t like for running and aren’t bad enough to send back go to them.   So if these don’t work out one of them will get them.

Each time I do intervals I do think my natural pace is faster than my current pace.  9’s feels more natural to me as a pace.  The problem is I can’t maintain it for a long distance.  It takes a lot of energy to push as much mass as I have and am likely to continue to have and the energy costs are not linear as pace increases as you’re very aware.

On a plus note, I matched my 5K PR time during this training session and I could have pushed it more for a 5K distance.  On top of that it was an after work run and my morning runs are always better.  Bottom line my next 5K, first Friday in May should see me with a new PR.  Of course the day after that 5K I’m running back to back Warrior Dashes.  So those may not be all that fast. 🙂

A #runner I deal with on a daily basis REALLY wants a Stryd.  I was looking at them, the whole train by power thing and the #omfgaccurate allegedly for pace it is interesting but I’m not sure about the data. How do you ‘use’ that data to become more efficient or better at #notrunning?

I was looking at their training plans and they seem to be dominated by intervals and hilly intervals.  The whole high intensity training seems to be everywhere.  My own Garmin based training plans have quite a lot of it.

I doubt I’ll ever get down to the 8′ pace I had in my 20’s/30’s again.  There’s a very valid reason the BQ times get longer based on age.   There’s only so much stress/output you can squeeze out of the human body at any given age and in general it continually declines over time after peaking far too soon IMO of the human lifespan.

Interestingly statistically #runners who start young burn out in their 30’s in terms of their PR times.   #notarunners who are more casual in their efforts can set PR’s quite later in life.  So in theory I still have some performance increases and can keep setting PR’s.

Ran my first real 10k race today.   By real I mean one that I was able to run it at my pace, as slow as that pace is.

I guess mine suffered from shrinkage as it has been cold”

I ended up with 1:08:00 for my 10K time.  This shaved 6+ minutes off my last 10K PR time so that’s not bad.    I was also able to get negative splits on almost every mile.  Only mile 2 was a few seconds slower than the preceding mile.   Average pace was 10:54.  My last mile was at a 10:12 pace.

I felt okay at the end of the race and now which means I could have shaved a another minute or two off my total time.   At no time was I huffing although the last 3 miles saw my HR creep from a low Zone 3 and into Zone 4.   That’s telling me that my upcoming half (April 28th) I’ll have to slow it down.

Using the Race Predictor in Pace+ for Android it’s showing me at a 2:30 for a half.    Which is IMO far more realistic than the Garmin race predictor which has me running a half in 1:51:19.    The Garmin’s predictions in my opinion are more than a little jacked up.   I can’t do a mile in 8 flat much less the 5K Garmin says I can do in 24:12.   I’m honestly not sure what Garmin uses to get these numbers but they’re far more enthusiastic for everyone I know who has them than is possible.

Anyway the Pace+ at 2:30:00 is right where I think I may land.  If I can do a half in 2:30 I’ll be fairly okay with that.   I’m still 120lbs heavier than the average distance runner.  That’s a LOT of dead weight to be carrying over long distances.  It’s better than the almost 200lbs over the average runner I did have.

This race I ran with a Nathan hand held, I really like the strap on those, super soft materials.   In it I had 150calories worth of Tailwind Orange, basically a scoop and a half.   I went through almost all of the 15oz of it over the course of the race.  The bottle supposedly holds 16 oz but I guess mine suffered from shrinkage as it has been cold.  Or the fact that it’s double shelled for insulation is consuming some of the internal space.

For the Golden Driller Half I’ll be wearing my Jurek FKT vest with the one 20oz bottles of plain water and one with a 2 scoop Tailwind mix. I’ll also put probably 20oz or so in my bladder, not so much because I may need it all but to just balance things out.

Tomorrow is a 10K training run and I’m going to try the Green Tea Tailwind, I ordered a sampler pack to find out if I like one of the other flavors better.   The Green Tea version appeals as it has caffeine in it which on early morning runs I can use to keep a caffeine headache at bay.   I also picked up a bottle of SaltStick Plus tabs which have caffeine in them that I can also use to offset a headache.

I found the Tailwind to be better for me than any of the gels.  I still prefer Stinger Waffles for taste, texture, enjoyment, but Tailwind is likely to become my primary fuel source for longer runs and I’ll reserve chewables for pre-race carb hits.

My Hoka Clifton 3’s held up well during the race, no complaints with them at all.   I believe this is the first >4 mile run I’ve done in them.  If I don’t find anything better I’ll probably order a couple or three pairs when the Clifton 4’s come out and the 3’s take a price cut.   They’re not OMFG good but they’re good enough to invest in if there’s nothing better.   I’m hoping the Topo road shoes get an upgrade this year, I’d love to give them another shot.

I’ve added a couple of hand helds to my inventory and have been using one lately.   On 2+ hour runs my arms, especially my left one has been bothering me so I thought adding hand helds would help in conditioning my arms to be bent at an L shape for hours on end.   And it lets me not use my belt which can be annoying if I have anything more than keys and my phone on it.

having the most cushion you can get will make it more comfortable for all concerned.”

The jury is still out on if I care for the handhelds.   For trail runs they restrict my ability to catch myself on a fall or use trees as hand holds when the trails get really technical.   Also since I carry my phone with me so that my wife can track me using Garmin Live Track it puts my phone at risk; if I have to catch myself the phone is going to take the hit first.

I read a study that had data that indicated hand held water is the least efficient way to carry water if you carry water at all.   A vest is best followed by a belt or pack and then hand helds.   This is due to the fact that it takes more energy/effort when your water is at the end of levers, aka your arms, as opposed to just riding passively at your back or waist.

This coming weekend is my first 10K race on Saturday and I think I’m going to wear my Hoka Clifton 3’s.   The last few runs I’ve used my Nimbus 19’s, Topo Terraventures and Clifton 3’s with a mix of distances, 11 miles to 3 miles, and road to trails and my left knee on the outside has been bothering me.  Nothing ‘major’ but enough to make me shorten my stride and slow down my pace.  But I think having the most cushion you can get will make it more comfortable for all concerned.

Tomorrow is an hour run at zed 3 pacing, for me that’s going to be around an 10:30 to 11:00 mile pace.   We’ll see how the knee fares with that, I’ll be using some compression sleeves on my calves to see if it makes a difference.

I have noticed that compression sleeves have helped me with calf pain when I run with slower runners; yes Virginia there are slower runners than me.

Last long run I used some DIY Huma chia gels.  Even making my own I’m just not a fan of chia based gels.   It was chia seeds ground to a flour in a spice grinder, a mix of complex sugars, tart cherry juice and strawberry puree.  With some sea salt and salt substitute for sodium and potassium.  But in general I find the gels to be barely tolerable at best and downright eww at worst.

My preferred supplements are still the Stinger waffles and the Stinger chews.  I’m probably never going to be a high fat low carb non-runner in spite of my normal diet consisting of high protein, moderate fat and low carbs.

One month give or take and I’ll do my first half marathon.  I don’t see me not finishing.  I would like to finish in in a 2:30 or less but we’ll see how it goes.   Remember I’m carrying 120lbs more than the average runner’s weight, it takes a lot of energy to move that much mass and the energy costs aren’t linear.

Sunday was another long, for a #notarunner, day and it wasn’t good.  Easily the worst/hardest run I’ve had in spite of running the exact same distance and format a week previously on that week’s long run.

you should strive for though is to not just let the body win.  Screw that.”

Your basic 10 walk, 60 minute run, 10 minute walk, 60 minute run, cool down, at least basic to the Garmin half marathon level 1 heart zone based training plan.

Without a time machine to go back and try alternatives I’ve found the Garmin plans to work for me, at least I keep moving forward in ability.  My current ‘running wife’ as I’ve been informed she is called has slowed my progress down a bit the last month or two but she’s pretty much caught up with me at this point and we can advance together so it’s fine.

But this last long run was just awful.  There is obvious causation, one I have a cold/flu.

Two I decided to not do add any carbs to my diet the day before the run, I’m by nature of my desire to lose weight always carb empty on any given day. I usually try to swap a few hundred calories of fats/proteins for carbs the night before a race or extra long run but not this time to see the impact.

The only carbs I had was a stinger waffle right before the run started and some homemade chia gu, essentially the same thing as the Huma gu’s just a lot cheaper at the turn around point.

Three I’m running at a 6 month calorie deficit. This has resulted in the lost of roughly 20% of my starting body weight in total and the conversion of less dense fat for higher density muscle.  Never a bad thing really.

Four is a lack of sleep period, much less ‘good’ sleep which I don’t know what that means anymore.

And lucky number 5 is work stress where I’m wrestling with the option of staying and working in a situation I don’t care to be in but leaving the people I work with by going to some unknown situation where things might be better, might be worse.

I don’t know which factor(s) contributed the most but at the turn around point I felt pretty bad, the second hour run was maybe a 45-50 minute run at best.  The rest was walking.  I walked up hills that I’ve powered up every time in the past.   The cool down period was a major effort of will just to keep walking to the car.

When I got home I just covered a chair in some towels and collapsed on it for a good 30-45 minutes before I had the enthusiasm to get up and shower.  Never done that before.  I can’t stand being in sweaty damp clothes if I’m not actively doing something to make those clothes sweaty and damp.

So yeah, not a great run.

The whoooole point of this story is to if you’re #notarunner like myself know that there are going to be some bad days.  There may be reasons, there may not be reasons, it could external factors or internal factors but regardless you’re going to have off days.

And those are the days where you get to choose who’s the boss of you.  Your failing body or your great brain.   And sometimes it’s a compromise “Okay body, we just push through these last 10 minutes and then we walk it on home.  Pansy.”

What you should strive for though is to not just let the body win.  Screw that nose.  Compromise if you have to, but never give in completely.  In the duality that is the mental and physicality of you, the mental part should be in the driver seat even if it sometimes means you get into a fender bender from time to time because you didn’t listen to the squeaking brakes.

And yes Virginia you should listen to the brakes, but that doesn’t mean you have to always pay attention to them.

Today was the longest run yet for us.  Two and a half hours broken up into a 10,60,10,60,10 session.   10 minute walks, 60 minute runs.   The idea being of course to get us used to beatnig our feet on the pavement for hours at a time.

I can eat anything and I mean almost anything to be polite or on request”

It’s all well and good, even necessary based on conventional training wisdom, to do HIIT and tempo and fartleks for speed and VO2 max and lactate acidifying and all that but to prepare your body for running distance requires running distance.  Shorter length and time segments do not simulate the pounding you take over the long haul.

We covered 11 miles in our 2 hour 30 minute session.  Not very impressive but then again… #NOTARUNNER.  This session was also a Z2 heart rate zone session and my average BPM was barely 117.  Not quite full training for me. But when you run with someone you run with someone.  This is something I’ve already covered.

My current running partner has matched me for speed but I have 6+ months on her in terms of training so conditioning she still working on.   She’s come a long way in the 3ish months she’s been training, far faster and longer than myself.    She pushes herself hard, possibly too hard to keep up with me showing an order of magnitude greater spirit and dedication than I have myself.

Our first half is coming up in roughly 7 weeks, April 28th.   I’ll be okay if we finish in 2.5 hours.  Hell I’ll be okay if we finish in under 3h.   I may have mentioned (once or twice) but I’m not built like a runner and at the moment with 270lbs I’m pushing a little more weight up those hills than your average actual runner.   So honestly just finishing each new length race as I do them for the first time is a step in the right direction for me.

Today for nutrition I tried Gu’s Stroopwafel, the chocolate one and I was very not impressed.  It wasn’t bad but it was even more bland than the Stinger Waffles if that’s possible.   I won’t be purchasing a box.

I also tried Gu’s Chocolate Fudge gel.  Not a fan and I’m not sure if it was the distance or the gel but right around the 10 mile mark I started feeling slightly nauseous.  It also could have been lack of caffeine.   But overall the Gu chocolate was like eating the cheapest uncooked brownie fudge batter, the  2 for a $1 kind.    I can eat anything and I mean almost anything to be polite or on request that doesn’t mean I don’t have preferences.

My strong preference is still the Stinger Chews followed by Stinger Waffles in commercial solid nutrition.   Runner up is Clif Bloks.

I’m going to be taking a look at Topo shoes in a couple of weeks when one of the FLSS’s gets a shipment in.   Both the road and trail shoes.   I wore my Altra Lone Peak 2.5’s yesterday for about an hour walking and the 0 drop does really promote toe/mid foot striking which I need to try to shift to.   The Altra’s are very comfortable, probably the most comfortable shoe I have in terms of feel.   But an hour of walking in 0 drop left my calves just starting to take notice of the lack of heel.

The Topo’s at 3 to 5mm drop are a reasonable alternative to 0 drop I think and they have some pretty good reviews.   They’re foot shaped like the Altras which means they might possibly fit me.

When I was at one of the FLSS’s one of the worker/runners there who’s a ultrarunner and does 350 miles of trails a month was wearing Topo’s and was pretty enthusiast about them.   Since I still haven’t found ‘my’ shoe I’m willing to investigate further.   Once I find ‘my’ shoes I’m buying 20 pairs of them as one thing I’ve learned is every year the shoe companies change each shoe up and the changes mean you may be looking for another ‘your’ shoe as a result.